eVangelizing

This was a pretty in-depth witnessing encounter I had with an "intellectual" I met on a chat room. I started off in the main room, just asking questions about spirituality and God, hoping to spur something. I caught the attention of this guy, who was surprisingly patient with what I had to say. Others would curse me into oblivion when I would mention anything about sin or judgment, but this guy would actually DEFEND ME, telling them to back off. Anyway, after giving him the Law and getting nowhere with him, he made a comment about how all Biblical prophecies are open-ended, and were made so that they could be fulfilled at any time, therefore "hedging the bets." I begged to differ, and told him that there were time-specific prophecies that were fulfilled, but that he probably wouldn't be interested, b/c he would have a presupposition to them, and discard them according to his underlying sinful agenda (most people will ignore prophecies, b/c if they paid attention to them, it would mean changing their life and their sinful ways), but not in those words (we need to be gentle when witnessing). To my utter surprise, he seemed VERY interested, so I took the time to look up the 70 sevens prophecy in Daniel. Then, I invited him to a private room, hoping to facilitate some humility. Here's where we pick up:


You are now talking with Humboldt
Humboldt, God says in the Bible that He "has chosen the foolish things of this world to confound the wise, and the weak things of this world to overcome the strong." That is why people read stories like Noah's Ark and scoff at it. So, which leads us to this prophecy. God has chosen to give it to us in this form, in order that the scoffers actually have to humble themselves and trust in the word of God.
If you will humble yourself under God, this prophecy will knock you flat.
You there?
Yes.
Daniel 9:24-27.
If you know a little history of that time period, it will shed light on the verses. But, I'll leave that to you. Just remember that God's Law is perfect, and you've broken it. Please humble yourself tonight.
Heh ... fraid not, eli. But alright .... now, in my last study of this passage, I found dozens upon dozens of valid interpretations.
I couldn't narrow them down, and they just kept on coming.
What do you believe the "sevens" are?
I'm sorry you feel that way. Read any commentary on the pasage and you'll find out. It takes humility, though, and God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble. The sevens are weeks of years.
I'm saying that there are dozens of different commentaries.
Who do I choose?
are you saying that, or have you actuall yread them?
honestly.
I've not read all of them, no.
I had to give up after about 6 or 7.
I couldn't pick a single one.
okay. well, I've personally not seen 6 or 7 different interpretations of that passage, but that's just one prophecy out of hundreds. The evidence convinced me.
Now, have you confirmed that Jesus birth was 62 weeks after that passage was written?
I assume that's what you mean by 62 "sevens".
No, the annointing of Messiah, which is in those verses.
Jesus' triumphal entry.
I find it hard to believe Daniel was written only a year and a quarter before any time Jesus was alive.
huh? It was written hundreds of years before Jesus was alive.
Then, 62 "sevens" until what?
It certainly can't be referring to any Messiac foretelling if a "seven" is a week.
after the 62 weeks, messiah shall be cut off (killed)
I said weeks of years. They are years.
Then 62 years times 7?
yes
that would lead right up to the time of Christ
Okay ..... now, when you say "after the 62 weeks, messiah shall be cut off", do you mean 434 years until he's cut off? Or 62 weeks from some point in time *until* being cut off?
434 years.
Okay .... now, that's quite thin to me. The Hebrew "seven" is a round number in their numerical system, much like our "ten". There's a lot of things it could be referring to .... doesn't seem too convincing to me.
from the "going forth of the command to restore and build..."
that's the time frame.
verse 25.
Hold on ..... from then until what, what?
from the "going forth... until Messiah the Prince..."
And this is 434 years?
the 62 times 7 is 434. and additional seven times7 is 49 years. That totals 483 yers.
Alright.
1) 7 weeks or 49 years, in rebuilding of the "street and wall"
2) 62 weeks or 434 more years, to the first advent of the Messiah.
I'm afraid I don't see myself being too convinced here. It's not hard for me to read a passage like this, realize that it's 434 years past the time specified in the bible, and live my life like I'm the Messiah.
ok, how could you control where you're born?
Where and when, I can't.
there were explicit prophecies controlling that.
God made these prophecies to be impossible for human duplication. He wanted His Messiah to be unmistaken.
I'm just saying, there's sooo many angles to cover, that in order for one conclusion to be drawn and no other, would be an awfully erratic rationalization.
If science did this, we'd be in deep poo.
woah, let's not start jumping around here... what are you thinking about the prophecy about his birth? are you familiar with that one?
If the government did this ...... well, nevermind, because it already does this. =) And look at us.
Are you referring to the virgin birth prophecy?
no, the one foretelling his birth place.
you know the one?
The interesting thing is that when you put the virgin birth of the Old Testament in context, it's not a prophecy at all. =) It's for someone else, not the Messiah.
Anyway.....
let's address that in a minute. are you fam. with the other one?
Yes. Which book is that?
I think it's Hosea, but I'm probably wrong.
Micah 5:2.
Thanks.
proph. fulfillment is in Matthew 2:1.
I'd say that like any prophecy in the bible, anything is very very possible.
what do you mean, anything?
He could be the Messiah, the Catholic Church could have manipulated yet another verse ..... could just be coincidence, could be a lot of things.
that's a very valid concern. one that I had...
I could say the same for the Quran's prophecies.
If you'll notice, the foretellings of the Quran are pretty on the dot themselves. =)
Actually, no you couldn't. I politely challenge you to do that.
Well, to be fair, I guess I'll do that....hang on.
I've got all night. My wife's out of town, and this is very important to me.
(and to you, though you don't know it)
Alright....
The Qur'an says: "The Roman Empire has been defeated in a land close by; but they, even after this defeat, will gain victory in a few years. Allah's is the command, in the past and in the future. On that day shall the believers rejoice, with the help of Allah, He helps whom He wills. And He is the mighty and the most Merciful. It is the promise of Allah. Allah never departs from His promise: but most men understand not. They crave for the outer
That's Surah 30:1-7
Now, The Eastern Roman (i.e. Byzantine) Empire suffered a massive defeat at the hands of the Persians who captured Jerusalem in 614....
After that Egypt and Syria fell, and Constantinople was laid siege to
to a "land close by", by Surah's standards.
when was this prophecy written?
Err hang on...
Doesn't say.....actually, it doesn't matter. The passage is intended for a future coming.
Roman Empire gets defeated in a land close by, and then something happens in a few years which brings them to an inevitable defeat.
Anyway .... this actually does happen, word for word, even in the specified places.
It signaled to the Arabs the success of idolatry over the followers of revelation.
hang on...
Oh .... brings them to an inevitable victory** .... I meant to say. Not defeat.
Anyway .... it's nothing to really lay an egg over though .... it's not hard for a prophecy like this to be validated, no matter how exact it appears.
I vaguely remember something about how the prophecies were re-written, but I can't find it.
Well, I need to research that.
Oh lol .... well the same's been said for the bible and the Quran.
I found it...
But all I'm saying, back to the main point, is that so-called prophecies of any book hold a very relative magnitude. It's possible for anything to happen, even in specification, so long as the time is not specified.
And the Quran is very clever here .... it specifies a time *frame*, but not the exact *time*. Makes it very easily possible.
but, we just looked at a specific time from the bible prophecy.
The most serious problem may be that the statements in Sura 30 may merely be history, and not a prediction, because Mohammed was alive and still producing Koranic verses for several years after the time of the suggested Roman victory in history.
I'm afraid we didn't .... all we see is "sevens" .... sevens of what? Well, sevens of just about anything. The bible's clever too.
Ahhh .... no. This is roughly 500-600 years later.
We know this is the case, because Mohammed died in 632 A.D. at the age of 63. According to Al-Baizawi's commentary, the Byzantine Romans were evidently victorious over Persia in 628 A.D., and so, Mohammed was alive for four years after that victory ---therefore, Mohammed could easily have learned of the victory and then have dictated these verses of Sura 30. This would make Sura 30 history, not a prediction.
But it's comfy to assume seven "sevens of years".
look up above
Oh .... yes, he died in 632 A.D., that's very true.
It is a very safe bet that in "a few" years the Romans would be "victorious" in battle to some degree, since they were fighting various battles during every year. A victory would seem virtually 100% sure to happen within the space of nine years.
So, the problem is: the Sura 30 prediction is fairly vague and unspecific; it is much like saying that the British soccer team will win a game in "a few" years
Agreed
How about a little change... the Old Test. says to circumcise babies on the 8th day, but not until recently has science found that blod clotting hormones are at their peak on the 8th day.
coincidence?
Heh .... I think that is very very very much a coincidence, because not more than a century ago this wasn't the case.
what do you mean?
Hang on.
Playing Google tag...
I'm staying put.
Harumph.....can't find it on Google. Can you show me a reference saying that blood clotting hormones are at their peak on the 8th day, and what relevance this has? Honestly....I don't see what these hormones have to do with foreskin.
Well, obviously that area of the male body is very concentrated with blood. Any skin penetrating operation would cause blood loss, so God provided a way to counteract that.
The glans, yes, but not the foreskin.
Well, in a perfect world, I'd see that as valid, but
I have to go. =(
My mother's finished with dinner.
remember, we're talking thousands of years ago, when man's tools were not precise, and coudl be messy
please consider what I said. eliotmurray@hotmail.com
Thanks ..... alright, have a good one.
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